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Culture Experiences Science Theocratic

Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán

Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老)‐(Tuán {Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]團/糰) [Governing Body]) ← Tap/click to show/hide the “flashcard”

[Notes: Tap/click on a Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to reveal its “flashcard”; tap/click on a “flashcard” or its Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to hide the “flashcard”. 📖 📄 📘 icons mean 📖 Reveal All, 📄 Reveal Advanced, and 📘 Reveal None re all the “flashcards” in the heading, paragraph, etc. that they are placed at the beginning of.]

A few years back, I wrote up a brief web page listing reasons for producing Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音), etc. material for the Imitate (ia) book. Some, especially some who grew up in the West, may have felt that this book is made up of “just stories”, and ones that they were already quite familiar with, at that. However, we must remember that Chinese Bible students may often have a different perspective regarding the Bible accounts that are made to come to life in the Imitate book. As that web page said:

  • Many Chinese people in the world have not been exposed to Bible accounts the way many Westerners have.
  • Also, I have heard that some, perhaps many, Chinese Bible students tend to approach their Bible studies like intellectual exercises for accumulating chōuxiàng (abstract) head knowledge as if for a school exam, rather than as training for their hearts for their own real lives.

Later, the web page touches on how some of the real-world benefits of good storytelling like that found in the Imitate book involve empathy:

    • The actress Natalie Portman once said, “I love acting. I think it’s the most amazing thing to be able to do. Your job is practicing empathy. You walk down the street imagining every person’s life.”
  • The Imitate book helps build Bible students’ empathy towards Bible characters, which in turn helps Bible students realize that others would feel empathy towards them as well if they imitated these Bible characters—not everyone will just think they’re crazy, like many worldly friends or family members might think.

While even fictional stories can have the benefits described in the links and the quote above, true stories from the Bible can have even greater benefits, including spiritual ones.

Besides the Imitate book, another book from Jehovah’s organization that relates Bible accounts is the Learn From the Bible (lfb) book. The letter from the Governing Body in this book says that, similarly to the Imitate book, the Learn From the Bible book also “brings the Bible accounts to life and captures the feelings of those depicted”, while, unlike the Imitate book, it “tells the story of the human family from creation onward”. While the Learn From the Bible book is especially suitable for children, the letter from the Governing Body in this book says that “it can also be used to help adults who desire to learn more about the Bible”. So, it would be good to consider on this blog some of the expressions used in the Mandarin Learn From the Bible book.

You Have Mail!

This week’s MEotW, “Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老)‐(Tuán {Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]團/糰) [Governing Body])”, appears near the beginning of the Mandarin Learn From the Bible book:

English:

A Letter From the Governing Body

Mandarin (WOL, Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus):

📖 📄 📘 Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老)‐(Tuán {Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]團/糰) [Governing Body]) de (’s 的) Xìn (Letter 信)

We can see from the above that “Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老)‐(Tuán {Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]團/糰) [Governing Body]) is the official Mandarin expression used to translate “Governing Body”. What morphemes and words are used to make up this Mandarin expression? What do they mean? How do they work together to make up the whole expression?

Central, But Not Necessarily in the Central Kingdom

Both the morphemes in “zhōngyāng (centre | central 中央) mean “centre” or “central”. Years ago, a sister expressed to me that she doubted that the organization would use the expression “zhōngyāng (centre | central 中央)”, since it was such a mainland China-coded expression that’s often used by the current central government there. In fact, Pleco’s built-in dictionary says that it can be an abbreviation for “Zhōngguó Gòngchǎn‐Dǎng Zhōngyāng Wěiyuán‐Huì ((Zhōng·guó Central · Nation → [Chinese] 中国 中國) (Gòng·chǎn {Commonly Possessing} · {Produced (Things) → [Property]} → [Communist] 共产 共產)‐(Dǎng Party黨/党) (Zhōngyāng Central 中央) {(Wěi·yuán Entrusted · Members 委员 委員)‐(Huì Gathering) → [Committee]} → [Central Committee of the Communist Party of China]) (“Central Committee of the Communist Party of China”). Another example is “Zhōngguó Zhōngyāng Diànshì‐Tái ((Zhōng·guó Central · Nation → [China] 中国 中國) (Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Diàn·shì Electric · {Looking At} → [Television] 电视 電視)‐(Tái Platform → [Station]台/臺) [China Central Television (CCTV)]) (“China Central Television (CCTV)”), the national television broadcaster of China. However, mitigating against the concern that “zhōngyāng (centre | central 中央) is overly connected to mainland China is that it’s used in “Zhōngyāng Qíngbào‐Jú ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Qíng·bào Situation; Circumstances · Reporting → [Intelligence] 情报 情報)‐(Jú Bureau; Office → [Agency] 局) [Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)])”, the Mandarin expression referring to the US’s Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Anyway, the organization has decided that it’s not a problem to use “zhōngyāng (centre | central 中央) in the official Mandarin expression referring to the Governing Body.

Old (Man/Men)

“Zhǎnglǎo (Zhǎng·lǎo {grown → [elder]} · old (men) → [elders] 长老 長老) literally just means “grown old”, without any explicit reference to any man or men. However, it’s used such that it has an effective meaning of “elder (man/men)”, and it’s used by the organization to refer to the elders within the organization. There are many Mandarin expressions that follow this pattern of explicitly meaning a description, while only implicitly meaning that this description applies to a person, or to persons. Another example is “jìsī (jì·sī {offering sacrifices} · {taking charge [of]}; {attending [to]}; managing (person) → [priest] 祭司)”, which literally just means “offering sacrifices, attending to”, but which effectively means “priest[s]”, an implied person, or implied persons, to whom the literal description applies.

Towards a Clearer Style

In the rendering “Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老)‐(Tuán {Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]團/糰) [Governing Body])”, following after “Zhǎnglǎo (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老) is a hyphen. This is not a typical Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) rendering, if anything is typical about Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) in this characters-dominated world—typically, one would encounter “Zhǎnglǎotuán (Zhǎng·lǎo·tuán {{Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders]} · {{Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]} 长老团 長老團/糰)”, rendered as a single, uninterrupted word. However, I have been leaning towards the view that such relatively long, uninterrupted words are relatively difficult to parse, or mentally break down into meaningful components. So, I have been adopting the practice of inserting hyphens in expressions that are typically rendered as long, uninterrupted words, between expressions like “zhǎnglǎo (zhǎng·lǎo {grown → [elder]} · old (men) → [elders] 长老 長老) and “tuán ({roll sth. into a ball} → [unite; assemble | sth. roundish; lump | group; society; organization | round; circular | [mw for roundish things]]團/糰) that can stand alone as words. This makes it easier for readers to mentally come to grips with how multi-word expressions are constructed, with how they mean what they mean.

Even with the English writing system, which has been around for centuries and is very widely used, there remain similarly differing opinions on word separation and hyphenation, as well as differing opinions on things like the Oxford (serial) comma, British and American spellings, capitalization, etc. Different organizations, in fact, have different style guides regarding how to use the English writing system. It should not be surprising, then, that a relatively “young” writing system like Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音), which additionally faces cultural prejudices unfairly limiting its use, has some aspects regarding which differing opinions still exist, which may get hammered out to an extent with time and greater usage by many different people.

Having a Ball

Coming to the final morpheme of this week’s MEotW, note that while “tuán ({roll sth. into a ball} → [unite; assemble | sth. roundish; lump | group; society; organization | round; circular | [mw for roundish things]]團/糰) effectively means “group” or “body”, it literally means “roll something into a ball”, and can also mean “roundish mass; lump”! So, “zhǎnglǎo (zhǎng·lǎo {grown → [elder]} · old (men) → [elders] 长老 長老)tuán ({rolled into a ball} → [group] → [body]團/糰) suggests the mental image of a number of elders rolled into a ball or roundish mass, so that they become a body of elders. Hopefully, elders in the Mandarin field will be able to find this Mandarin wording amusing rather than be offended by it!

Anyway, the morphemes in “Zhōngyāng Zhǎnglǎo‐Tuán ((Zhōngyāng Central 中央) (Zhǎng·lǎo {Grown → [Elder]} · Old (Men) → [Elders] 长老 長老)‐(Tuán {Rolled into a Ball} → [Group] → [Body]團/糰) [Governing Body]) on a certain level of literalness come together to mean “Central Body of Elders”, which matches nicely with the English expression “Governing Body”. In their letter near the beginning of the Learn From the Bible book, the Governing Body introduces this book and expresses their hopes for how it will be able to benefit people who make good use of it. May we do our part to help people in the Mandarin field to do so. Perhaps, we can start by showing them the letter from the Governing Body that’s contained in the Learn From the Bible book.


For convenience:

The direct link for the Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus resource for the Learn From the Bible book is:

The short link for Chinese field language-learning links for the Learn From the Bible book is:

More Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) and Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web material based on the Mandarin Learn From the Bible book will be made available in the Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web resource as time allows.

Categories
Science Technology Theocratic

yǎnshēng

yǎnshēng (yǎn·shēng {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · {give birth/life to}; grow → [derive | develop; evolve; produce; give rise to] 衍生) ← Tap/click to show/hide the “flashcard”

[Notes: Tap/click on a Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to reveal its “flashcard”; tap/click on a “flashcard” or its Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to hide the “flashcard”. 📖 📄 📘 icons mean 📖 Reveal All, 📄 Reveal Advanced, and 📘 Reveal None re all the “flashcards” in the heading, paragraph, etc. that they are placed at the beginning of.]

The Shēngmìng Láizì Chuàngzào Ma? ((Shēngmìng Life 生命) (Lái·zì Came · From 来自 來自) (Chuàng·zào Initiating · {Making, Creating} → [Creating] 创造 創造) (Ma [? ptcl for “yes/no” questions])? [Was Life Created? (lc)]) (Was Life Created? (lc)) brochure and the Shēngmìng de Qǐyuán—Zhíde Sīkǎo de Wǔ Ge Wèntí ((Shēngmìng Life 生命) (de ’s 的) (Qǐ·yuán {Rising → [Starting]} · Source → [Origin] 起源/原)—(Zhí·de Worth · Getting → [Worth] 值得) (Sī·kǎo {Thinking About} · Examining 思考) (de ’s 的) (Wǔ Five 五) (Ge [mw]個/个) (Wèn·tí Asking · Subjects → [Questions] 问题 問題) [The Origin of Life—Five Questions Worth Asking (lf)]) (The Origin of Life—Five Questions Worth Asking (lf)) brochure were originally published back in 2010, but relatively recently, the English version of the Was Life Created? brochure was updated to the December 2022 Printing, and the Mandarin version of it was updated to the February 2023 Printing. Also, the Was Life Created? brochure and the Origin of Life brochure are now in the Teaching Toolbox section in the JW Library app. So, it would be good to consider some of the expressions used in the Mandarin versions of these publications that can be so helpful when discussing whether life was created.

“The Product of Random, Undirected Events?”

This week’s MEotW, which appears in the section of the Mandarin Was Life Created? brochure entitled “Jiǎnjiè (Jiǎn·jiè {Simple → [Brief]} · {Being Situated Between → [Introduction]} 简介 簡介) (“Introduction”), is “yǎnshēng (yǎn·shēng {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · {give birth/life to}; grow → [derive | develop; evolve; produce; give rise to] 衍生)”:

English:

Was life created, or are you purely the product of random, undirected events?

Mandarin (WOL; Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus)

📖 📄 📘 Shēngmìng (life 生命) láizì (lái·zì came · from 来自 來自) chuàngzào (chuàng·zào initiating · {making, creating} → [creating] 创造 創造) ma ([? ptcl for “yes/no” questions])? Háishi (Hái·shi {still more → [or]} · {is (it a)} 还是 還是) chúncuì ({being pure} → [purely] 纯粹 純粹) yóu ({due to} 由/繇) yìxiē (yì·xiē one · {indefinite number of} → [some] 一些) suíjī (suí·jī {coming along with} · chance → [random] 随机 隨機), (not 不) shòu ({having received} 受) zhǐhuī (zhǐ·huī {(pointing with) finger → [pointing]} · {spraying → [directing]} → [directing] 指挥 指揮) de (’s 的) shìjiàn (shì·jiàn events · [mw] 事件) yǎnshēng (yǎn·shēng {having been spilled over} · {having been given birth to} → [having been produced] 衍生) chulai (chu·lai out · {to come} 出来 出來) de ({’s (thing)} 的) ne ([? ptcl] 呢)?

As can be seen from the above quotes, the Mandarin Was Life Created? brochure uses “yǎnshēng (yǎn·shēng {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · {give birth/life to}; grow → [derive | develop; evolve; produce; give rise to] 衍生) to effectively mean “having been produced”.

Did Life Just Randomly “Spill Over” into Existence?

The “yǎn ({spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} [→ [[is] redundant; [is] superfluous]] 衍) in “yǎnshēng (yǎn·shēng {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · {give birth/life to}; grow → [derive | develop; evolve; produce; give rise to] 衍生) can mean “overflow” or “spill over”, so it well gives the impression of something that happens as a result of random, undirected processes, when there is not an intelligent person paying attention and directing things.

For comparison, consider three expressions that the Pleco app’s built-in dictionary uses as examples of expressions that include “yǎn ({spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} [→ [[is] redundant; [is] superfluous]] 衍)”:

  • yǎnjìn (yǎn·jìn {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · advance → [evolve] 衍进 衍進)
  • yǎnbiàn (yǎn·biàn {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · change → [develop; evolve] | {spreading [out]}; developing; amplifying; overflowing; {spilling over} · changing → [transformation; development; evolution; progressive change] 衍变 衍變)
  • yǎnwén (yǎn·wén {spread [out]; overflowed; spilled over → [redundant; superfluous]} · writing → [duplication/redundancy due to misprinting or miscopying] 衍文)

So, since “yǎnshēng (yǎn·shēng {spread [out]}; develop; amplify; overflow; {spill over} · {give birth/life to}; grow → [derive | develop; evolve; produce; give rise to] 衍生) accurately expresses the randomness and passiveness of how supporters of evolution say life came to be, we should not use it when referring to how our Creator actually brought life into existence—with loving care and heaps of active intelligent direction.


For convenience:

The direct link for the current generation Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus resource for the Was Life Created? brochure is:

The short link for Chinese field language-learning links for the Was Life Created? brochure is:

More Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) and Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web material based on the Mandarin Was Life Created? brochure will be made available in the Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web resource as time allows.

Categories
Culture Language Learning Science

jítǐ zhǔyì

jítǐ zhǔyì ((jí·tǐ gathered; collected · {body [→ [style; form]]} → [collective] 集体 集體) (zhǔ·yì master · meaning → [-ism] 主义 主義) [collectivism; community spirit]) ← Tap/click to show/hide the “flashcard”

Generally speaking, Western societies are considered to be relatively individualistic, while Eastern societies, like Chinese ones, are considered to be relatively collectivistic, emphasizing the collective, or group, over the individual. This week’s MEotW, “jítǐ zhǔyì ((jí·tǐ gathered; collected · {body [→ [style; form]]} → [collective] 集体 集體) (zhǔ·yì master · meaning → [-ism] 主义 主義) [collectivism; community spirit])”, seems to be the main Mandarin expression referring to such collectivism. (The MEotW post on “kǒngbù huódòng ((kǒng·bù fearing · terror → [terrorist] 恐怖) (huó·dòng living · moving → [activities] 活动 活動) [terrorism; terrorist activities]) contains a brief discussion about some other Mandarin -isms.)

Differences and Possible Causal Factors

While researching this post, I came across a scientific paper that has some interesting information about individualism and collectivism, including some information about measurable regional variations in collectivism that have been found across the Chinese mainland. Here is a quotation from it, regarding individualism and collectivism in general:

The distinction between individualism and collectivism captures important differences in how the relationship between self and others is constructed, as well as whether the individual or the group is understood as the basic unit of analysis (Cross et al., 2011; Hofstede, 2001; Markus & Kitayama, 1991, 2010; Oyserman et al., 2002; Triandis, 1995). People living in individualistic cultural contexts (e.g., the United States and the United Kingdom) tend to pay more attention to the achievement of their own goals and their own uniqueness. They have clear boundaries with others and pursue well-being or life satisfaction by sharing feelings and achieving personal success. In contrast, people living in collectivistic cultural contexts (e.g., China, Japan, and Korea) tend to be more concerned about maintaining harmonious relations with in-group members, and the boundaries between themselves and these others are much less firm. This distinction is reflected in cognition, perception, memory, cultural products, and even brain function (Morling, 2016; Nisbett & Masuda, 2003; Oyserman et al., 2002; Zhu et al., 2007). Many explanations for these differences have been proposed, including cultural heritage (Ma et al., 2016), modernity (Inglehart & Baker, 2000), climato-economic theory (Van de Vliert et al., 2013), the subsistence system (Uskul et al., 2008), the historical risk of infectious disease (Fincher et al., 2008), and geographic and relational mobility (Oishi, 2010).

Later in the paper, the authors divide China into four regions, and present a table listing some factors that may have contributed to the varying degrees of collectivism in those regions.

Triple-Line Framework of variations within China.

Table 1. Ecological Factor Differences Among the Four Regions.

Region I Region II Region III Region IV
Collectivism Lowest Lower Higher Highest
Climate Harsh Harsh Comfortable Comfortable
Water Less Enough Less Enough
Rainfall <400 mm 400–800 mm 400–800 mm >800 mm
Subsistence
system
Herder Wheat or herder/wheat-blended Wheat Rice
Voluntary
settlement
No Yes No No
Population
density
Low Low High High

Pluses and Minuses

Collectivistic societies can have certain good aspects, as expressed by this example sentence from the entry for “xūntáo (xūn·táo {cure (meat/etc.) with smoke} · {mould (as with clay)} → [influence positively; nurture; edify; train] 熏陶 熏/薰陶) in Pleco’s built-in dictionary:

Zài jítǐ zhǔyì jīngshén de xūntáo xià, háizimen hùxiāng guānxīn, hùxiāng bāngzhù. [Word division was edited.]

Nurtured in the spirit of collectivism, the children care for each other and help each other.

However, recently, some research has come out that shows that some negative ways of thinking, feeling, and acting are more likely to be displayed by those in collectivistic societies.

To clarify, here is a definition of “zero-sum” :

Of any system where all gains are offset by exactly equal losses.

So, a zero-sum game or system is one in which another must lose for one to win—no win-win situations. That means that if you hold zero-sum beliefs, as, according to the studies referred to in the above post, collectivists are more likely to do, then you will think that any goodness that’s enjoyed by someone else is goodness that’s no longer available to you.

Zero-sum thinking makes it difficult to have true empathy for others who are suffering, and it makes it difficult to follow the Bible counsel at Romans 12:15:

Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep.

Collectivism and the Obsession with Chinese Characters

It seems, then, that there is a connection between collectivism and China’s obsessive refusal so far to move on from Chinese characters to more reasonable and modern writing systems like Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音). Consider this excerpt from my article “Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Was Plan A”:

In addition to those who feel that phasing out the Hànzì [Chinese characters] would be a regrettable cultural loss, I have also noticed that there are some for whom knowledge of Hànzì is a matter of pride and self-identity. They are proud of knowing the Hànzì as they do, and they view their knowledge of the Hànzì as part of what makes them who they are, as something that distinguishes them from those who don’t know the Hànzì. Such ones may defend the Hànzì to the point of irrationality in the face of a more accessible alternative that would make them and their hard-earned knowledge of Hànzì less “special”, that would threaten to render worthless all of the blood, sweat, and tears they have invested into grappling with these “Chinese puzzles”. It’s as if they are saying, “That’s not fair! If I had to go through all this bitter hard work to learn characters before I could read and write Chinese, then everyone else has to too!”

Self-Identity and Balanced Self-Love

Self-identity is one thing that can particularly be a struggle for those raised in collectivistic societies, since the self is relatatively often neglected in such societies. It’s perhaps not surprising then, that, as mentioned above, in the relatively collectivistic Chinese societies, with their relative paucity, or scarcity, of more healthy ways to build and maintain self-identity, so many have such an unhealthy, obsessive attachment to Chinese characters, as something to desperately hang their neglected self-identities on.

As Jehovah’s organization has commented, for us to follow well the command at Matthew 19:19 to “love your neighbor as yourself”, we must first love ourselves in a healthy way. Also, while Romans 12:3 telling each of us “not to think more of himself than it is necessary to think, but to think so as to have a sound mind” is mainly an admonition against the overly self-important thinking that individualistic societies can tend to promote, it also shows that it is necessary to think a certain amount of ourselves to have a balanced, sound mind.

In turn, it seems that our developing a balanced, healthy view of ourselves can contribute to our avoiding things like zero-sum thinking, and to our developing a balanced, healthy view of Chinese characters. From that balanced, healthy place, we can be free to develop a balanced, healthy view of the possible alternative of Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音), which could empower us to serve Jehovah and help others in the Mandarin field as well as we ought to be able to.