Categories
Culture Current Events History Science Technology Theocratic

app

app (a-p-p)

This week’s MEotW, “app” (sometimes written as “APP”), is now the organization’s official way to translate “app” in Mandarin, as much as there is an official way to do so. For example, it’s used in the Mandarin version of the 2024 Governing Body Update #5 video, at around the 11:06 mark—the subtitles say “app”, while the narrator says what sounds like “ay pee pee”.

“app” used in the Mandarin version of the 2024 Governing Body Update #5 video

(By the way, note that in this screenshot, the JW Library app is shown in Dark Mode—afters many years of people being used to using computer displays with white backgrounds that mimick paper, the organization is showing that there is nothing objectionable about the dark or black backgrounds enabled by computing device displays, backgrounds which can be easier on the eyes in some situations. After all, the default mode of the universe that Jehovah created is dark mode!)

An Unexpected Pronunciation

Yes, interestingly, as we can hear from the aforementioned video, when one refers to the JW Library app in Mandarin, in addition to using the English app name “JW Library” instead of a corresponding native Mandarin expression, one spells out the letters of “app” instead of just saying the English word “app”.

Why use three syllables to pronounce this exceedingly simple one-syllable English word in such an unusual and unexpected way? An Internet search turned up a Quora page discussing this question, which page contains the following excerpt that seems to summarize the points made in many of the replies:

Since the the original form “application” is not widely known, app is thought to be an acronym. In the aspect of pronunciation, closed syllables ending with p do not meet the Chinese pronunciation habit.

So, in other words, some believe that:

  • Being unfamiliar with the English word “application” that “app” is an abbreviation for, many Mandarin-speaking people erroneously thought that “app” is an acronym/initialism like “USA” or “PRC”, and acronyms are pronounced by saying the names of the letters in them. [2024-08-21: Thanks to reader SB for bringing up the matter of acronyms vs. initialisms. It seems that there is agreement that initialisms are, or can be, pronounced letter by letter, like “USA” and the Mandarin “app” are. However, there is not agreement about whether expressions pronounced that way count as acronyms, since some hold that only expressions like “NASA” that are pronounced as words should be considered acronyms.]
    • The fact that the Mandarin “app” is sometimes written in all upper case letters as “APP”, like an acronym/initialism would be written, lends credence to this theory.
  • Because Mandarin does not have words that end with a “p” sound, people who have only ever spoken Mandarin are not used to saying such words, and thus were naturally inclined to not just pronounce “app” like it is pronounced in English.
    • Some drag Chinese characters and Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) into discussion of this question, but these writing systems are just secondary visual representations of the actual primary factor relating to this issue, which is the system of sounds used in Mandarin speech. (I believe that technically, this is referred to as Mandarin phonology.)
    • Personally, I have doubts about this proposed factor, since other one-syllable English words ending with a “p” sound, like “jeep” (“jípǔ (jeep 吉普)”) and “Trump” (“Tèlǎngpǔ (Trump 特朗普)/Chuānpǔ (Trump (Tw) 川普)”), have been borrowed by Mandarin without requiring Mandarin-speakers to spell out their letters. I suppose it’s possible, as some have said, that putting “app” through this process results in a Mandarin expression that sounds confusingly similar to other expressions.

It’s also interesting that “app”, with its spelled-out letters, is used in Mandarin to correspond with the English word “app”, including in official media published by the organization, even though a native Mandarin expression meaning “app” does indeed exist. As shown in dictionaries, “yìngyòng (yìng·yòng apply · use | applied · used [(instance/etc.)] [→ [applied; for practical application; practical | application; practical use | (computing) app]] 应用 應用) may be used to mean “app”, and just as “app” is short for “application”, “yìngyòng (yìng·yòng apply · use | applied · used [(instance/etc.)] [→ [applied; for practical application; practical | application; practical use | (computing) app]] 应用 應用) is short for “yìngyòng chéngxù ((yìng·yòng applied · used (instance) → [application] 应用 應用) (chéng·xù {journey → [procedure]} · order; sequence → [(computer) programme] 程序) [application programme]) (or “yìngyòng chéngshì ((yìng·yòng applied · used (instance) → [application] 应用 應用) (chéng·shì {journey → [procedure]} · pattern → [(computer) programme (Tw)] 程式) [application programme (Tw)]) in Taiwan).

“Resistance Is Futile”

While Chinese traditionalists may futilely carry on about keeping Chinese culture “pure”, the common use of “app” in Mandarin is yet another example of Chinese culture naturally being influenced by Western culture, since the phenomenon of the modern mobile app followed on from the Western invention of the iPhone. Regarding the influence of Western culture on Chinese people, I have also noticed that some Chinese people seem to consider it “cool” to sprinkle in some English words here and there when they are speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, etc., even when they know the corresponding native Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. expressions.

Speaking of “cool”, a recent Language Log blog post written by Victor Mair and entitled “The Englishization of Chinese enters a new phase” said the following about “cool”, and about our MEotW “app”:

He takes the well-known example of “cool” (I’ll summarize what he says here). Before the year 2000, if somebody mentioned in a praiseworthy way that something was “kù 酷”, which at that time literally meant “cruel; ruthless; brutal; oppressive; savage”, people would consider that he was mixing English “coo[l]” in his Chinese speech, because at that time English “cool” was still in the early stages of being absorbed into Chinese. Standard dictionaries listed only the negative, pejorative meanings of “kù 酷”; there was not a trace of the positive meaning of “neat; nifty” and so forth. However, with the passage of time and with more and more saying “coo[l]” in a positive, approbatory sense, it gradually became a Chinese word. Now, if you say that someone or something is “kù 酷” (i.e., “cool”), no one would think that you’re mixing English in your speech. The positive meanings “cool; neat; nifty” have now become the primary definitions for “kù 酷”.

…people are no longer feeling the need to syllabize, much less hanziize, English words. They just say them flat out, and nobody blinks an eye that they are English words in Chinese. They have already instantly become Chinese terms — at least in speech. Nobody has cared to figure out how they should be written in hanzi [Chinese characters]. Even if you write them, you write them with roman letters…the roman alphabet has become an integral part of the Chinese writing system

There are hundreds of such words in current Chinese discourse, and they are at diverse stages of absorption into Chinese, e.g., “app”, “logo”, and “Ptú P图” (lit. “P picture/image”).

Yes, along with the “JW Library” app name, “app” is yet another example of how English words and Latin alphabet letters—like those used in Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音)—are being incorporated into how people speak and write Mandarin Chinese “in the wild”, in the real world.

Anyway, as discussed in the 2024 Governing Body Update #5 video mentioned above, we stay neutral with regard to the world’s conflicts. While this obviously includes the world’s wars and political conflicts, in principle, this also applies to the world’s culture wars and its cultural conflicts and competitions. Our focus should be on how we can advance the interests of God’s Kingdom, and promote God’s righteous ways of doing things.—Matthew 6:33.

Categories
Culture Experiences Language Learning Science Theocratic

hǎohāo[r]

hǎohāo[r] (hǎo·hāo[·r] {[is] well} · {[is] well | with care} [· {child | youth | son → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]}] [→ [[is] in perfectly good condition; alright | all out; to one’s heart’s content; earnestly]] 好好[儿] 好好[兒]) ← Tap/click to show/hide the “flashcard”

[Notes: Tap/click on a Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to reveal its “flashcard”; tap/click on a “flashcard” or its Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to hide the “flashcard”. 📖 📄 📘 icons mean 📖 Reveal All, 📄 Reveal Advanced, and 📘 Reveal None re all the “flashcards” in the heading, paragraph, etc. that they are placed at the beginning of.]

A few years back, I wrote up a brief web page listing reasons for producing Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音), etc. material for the Imitate (ia) book. Some, especially some who grew up in the West, may have felt that this book is made up of “just stories”, and ones that they were already quite familiar with, at that. However, we must remember that Chinese Bible students may often have a different perspective regarding the Bible accounts that are made to come to life in the Imitate book. As that web page said:

  • Many Chinese people in the world have not been exposed to Bible accounts the way many Westerners have.
  • Also, I have heard that some, perhaps many, Chinese Bible students tend to approach their Bible studies like intellectual exercises for accumulating chōuxiàng (abstract) head knowledge as if for a school exam, rather than as training for their hearts for their own real lives.

Later, the web page touches on how some of the real-world benefits of good storytelling like that found in the Imitate book involve empathy:

    • The actress Natalie Portman once said, “I love acting. I think it’s the most amazing thing to be able to do. Your job is practicing empathy. You walk down the street imagining every person’s life.”
  • The Imitate book helps build Bible students’ empathy towards Bible characters, which in turn helps Bible students realize that others would feel empathy towards them as well if they imitated these Bible characters—not everyone will just think they’re crazy, like many worldly friends or family members might think.

While even fictional stories can have the benefits described in the links and the quote above, true stories from the Bible can have even greater benefits, including spiritual ones.

Besides the Imitate book, another book from Jehovah’s organization that relates Bible accounts is the Learn From the Bible (lfb) book. The letter from the Governing Body in this book says that, similarly to the Imitate book, the Learn From the Bible book also “brings the Bible accounts to life and captures the feelings of those depicted”, while, unlike the Imitate book, it “tells the story of the human family from creation onward”. While the Learn From the Bible book is especially suitable for children, the letter from the Governing Body in this book says that “it can also be used to help adults who desire to learn more about the Bible”. So, it would be good to consider on this blog some of the expressions used in the Mandarin Learn From the Bible book.

Same Character, Different Morphemes/Words

This week’s MEotW, “hǎohāo[r] (hǎo·hāo[·r] {[is] well} · {[is] well | with care} [· {child | youth | son → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]}] [→ [[is] in perfectly good condition; alright | all out; to one’s heart’s content; earnestly]] 好好[儿] 好好[兒])”, appears in the second paragraph of Lesson 20 of the Mandarin Learn From the Bible book, which is entitled “Jiē ({Came into Contact with} → [Took Hold of] (the Baton Next) 接) Xialai (Xia·lai Down · {to Come} 下来 下來) de (’s 的) Liù (Six 六) Chǎng ([mw for recreational, sports, or other activities]場/塲) Zāiyāng (Calamities → [Plagues] 灾殃 災殃) (“The Next Six Plagues”):

English:

The next day, the animals began to die. But the animals of the Israelites didn’t die.

Mandarin (WOL, Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus):

📖 📄 📘 Dì‐èr ((Dì (on the) [pref to form ordinal numbers] 第)‐(èr two 二) [(on the) second]) tiān (sky → [day] 天), Āijí (Egypt 埃及) jiù (then 就) sǐle (sǐ·le {had die} · {to completion} 死了) hěn (very 很) duō (many 多) shēngkou (shēng·kou {domestic animal} · mouths → [domestic animals] 牲口), dànshì (dàn·shì but · {(it) was (that)} 但是) Yǐsèliè‐rén ((Yǐsèliè Israel 以色列)‐(rén people 人) [Israelites]) de ( 的) shēngkou (shēng·kou {domestic animal} · mouths → [domestic animals] 牲口) què (however) dōu (all 都) hǎohāor (hǎo·hāo·r {were well} · {were well} · {child → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]} [were alright] 好好[儿] 好好[兒]) de ({’s (domestic animals)} 的).

“Hǎohāo[r] (Hǎo·hāo[·r] {[is] well} · {[is] well | with care} [· {child | youth | son → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]}] [→ [[is] in perfectly good condition; alright | all out; to one’s heart’s content; earnestly]] 好好[儿] 好好[兒]) has what may seem at first like an unexpected pronunciation. Because its two morphemes are each written with the same familiar character “好”, one may at first expect that they would both have the same basic pronunciation of “hǎo ({[is] good/well} [→ [[is] very [much]]] | {[is] (more) good/well} [→ [[is] better]] | well/{to a good finish} | {(it) is good/well} → [OK; alright] 好)”, and that, in accordance with Mandarin’s tone sandhi rules, the first morpheme would be pronounced with a second tone and the second morpheme would be pronounced with a third tone.* However, actually, in “hǎohāo[r] (hǎo·hāo[·r] {[is] well} · {[is] well | with care} [· {child | youth | son → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]}] [→ [[is] in perfectly good condition; alright | all out; to one’s heart’s content; earnestly]] 好好[儿] 好好[兒]) the second “好” character represents a different morpheme compared to the one represented by the first “好” character—while the first “好” character represents the familiar morpheme that is written in Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) as “hǎo ({[is] good/well} [→ [[is] very [much]]] | {[is] (more) good/well} [→ [[is] better]] | well/{to a good finish} | {(it) is good/well} → [OK; alright] 好) and that means “well” in many contexts, the second “好” character represents a morpheme that is written in Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) as “hāo ({with care} | {[is] well} 好) and that in some contexts means “well” and in other contexts means “with care”. (E.g., “hǎohāor (hǎo·hāo·r well · with care · {child → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]} 好好[儿] 好好[兒]) gōngzuò (gōng·zuò work · do → [work] 工作) means “work well, with care”.)

While some supporters of Chinese characters erroneously claim that Mandarin has too many homophones (different words that have the same pronunciation) for Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) to be a practical writing system for it, their beloved characters suffer from homographs, different morphemes/words that are written the same way, with the same character. (“Hǎo ({[is] good/well} [→ [[is] very [much]]] | {[is] (more) good/well} [→ [[is] better]] | well/{to a good finish} | {(it) is good/well} → [OK; alright] 好)”, “hāo ({with care} | {[is] well} 好)”, and also “hào (like; {be fond of} [→ [have a tendency to; be likely to]] 好) make up just one set of examples—there are many more.) And, just as characters are one way to help one distinguish homophones from one another (context is a better way), pronunciation, as represented by Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音), can often help one distinguish homographs from one another, as we can see from the examples of “hǎo ({[is] good/well} [→ [[is] very [much]]] | {[is] (more) good/well} [→ [[is] better]] | well/{to a good finish} | {(it) is good/well} → [OK; alright] 好)”, “hāo ({with care} | {[is] well} 好)”, and “hào (like; {be fond of} [→ [have a tendency to; be likely to]] 好)”.

Children of Beijing

Also notable about the pronunciation of hǎohāo[r] (hǎo·hāo[·r] {[is] well} · {[is] well | with care} [· {child | youth | son → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]}] [→ [[is] in perfectly good condition; alright | all out; to one’s heart’s content; earnestly]] 好好[儿] 好好[兒]) is that it may be pronounced with “r ({child | youth | son} → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]) at the end. While this “r ({child | youth | son} → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]) has a literal meaning of “child” or “son”, the well-regarded ABC Chinese-English Dictionary provides this definition for this “r ({child | youth | son} → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect])”:

((diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect)

Something that deserves special attention about this “r ({child | youth | son} → [(diminutive) non-syllabic retroflex suffix; pronunciation feature in Beijing dialect]) suffix is that its pronunciation involves one of the sounds of Mandarin that is not like any of the sounds of English. The relatively well-known Sinosplice website has a couple of related pages with good information about this Mandarin sound, including directions on how to use one’s tongue, etc. to properly pronounce it:


For convenience:

The direct link for the Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus resource for the Learn From the Bible book is:

The short link for Chinese field language-learning links for the Learn From the Bible book is:

More Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) and Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web material based on the Mandarin Learn From the Bible book will be made available in the Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web resource as time allows.

 

* One expression in which this is the case is “hǎohǎo xiānsheng ((hǎo·hǎo {(it) is good/well → [OK; alright]} · {(it) is good/well → [OK; alright]} 好好) (xiān·sheng earlier · born (one) → [mister; Mr.] 先生) [sb. who tries to please everybody/not offend anybody; Mr. Agreeable; yes-man])”. ^

Categories
Culture History Language Learning Technology Theocratic

cuò

cuò ({[is] alternating; staggered} [→ [[is] wrong; mistaken; incorrect; erroneous | missed | grinding; rubbing | moving to the side | mistake; error; blunder [→ [fault]]]] | {[is] interlocked and jagged} [→ [intricate]]) ← Tap/click to show/hide the “flashcard”

[Notes: Tap/click on a Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to reveal its “flashcard”; tap/click on a “flashcard” or its Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) expression to hide the “flashcard”. 📖 📄 📘 icons mean 📖 Reveal All, 📄 Reveal Advanced, and 📘 Reveal None re all the “flashcards” in the heading, paragraph, etc. that they are placed at the beginning of.]

One of the publications that is now recommended to be used on Bible studies is the Yǒngyuǎn Xiǎngshòu Měihǎo de Shēngmìng—Hùdòng Shì Shèngjīng Kèchéng ((Yǒng·yuǎn Eternally · {Far (in Time)} 永远 永遠) (Xiǎng·shòu Enjoy · Receive 享受) (Měi·hǎo Beautiful · Good 美好) (de ’s 的) (Shēngmìng Life 生命)—(Hù·dòng {Each Other} · Moving → [Interactive] 互动 互動) (Shì (Type 式) (Shèng·jīng Holy · Scriptures → [Bible] 圣经 聖經) (Kè·chéng Lessons · Procedure → [Course] 课程 課程) [Enjoy Life Forever!—An Interactive Bible Course (lff)]) (Enjoy Life Forever! (lff)) book. This week’s MEotW, “cuò ({[is] alternating; staggered} [→ [[is] wrong; mistaken; incorrect; erroneous | missed | grinding; rubbing | moving to the side | mistake; error; blunder [→ [fault]]]] | {[is] interlocked and jagged} [→ [intricate]])”, occurs at about the 18 second mark of the video for lesson 08, point 6 of this book:

📖 📄 📘 (I 我) zǒng (always總/縂) juéde (jué·de {to wake to → [to feel]} · got → [got to feel] 觉得 覺得), fāshēng (fā·shēng {issued forth} · {came to life} → [happened] 发生 發生) zài (on 在) (me 我) shēnshang (shēn·shang {body → [self]} · upon 身上) de (’s 的) shì (things 事) dōu (all 都) shì (were 是) wǒ de ((wǒ me 我) (de ’s 的) [my]) cuò ({being staggered} → [error] → [fault]).

Many undoubtedly already know this word to mean “wrong” or “mistaken”. However, examination of the various meanings provided for it in various dictionaries, perhaps with an app like Pleco that allows one to quickly check multiple dictionaries, seems to reveal that there is an extra layer of meaning underneath the meaning of “wrong” or “mistaken” that many at first think of for “cuò ({[is] alternating; staggered} [→ [[is] wrong; mistaken; incorrect; erroneous | missed | grinding; rubbing | moving to the side | mistake; error; blunder [→ [fault]]]] | {[is] interlocked and jagged} [→ [intricate]])”. This more basic meaning seems to be that of “alternating”, or “staggered”—basically, not lining up.

As I have continued to research into the meanings of Mandarin expressions as part of my work on this blog, my work on Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus material, and just as part of my overall Mandarin language-learning journey, I have come across many such expressions that seem to have turned out to have extra layers of meaning underneath the ones I was at first familiar with.

Digging Deeper

The historical roots of Mandarin Chinese stretch far back in time. As the Wikipedia article on Old Mandarin summarizes:

Old Mandarin or Early Mandarin was the speech of northern China during the Jurchen-ruled Jin dynasty and the Mongol-led Yuan dynasty (12th to 14th centuries).

So, it’s not surprising that there may be etymological layers of meaning underneath the meanings of Mandarin expressions that we are familiar with today. It’s much like how occasionally physical things from the past get discovered in places where people lived and did things in the past, like how so many artifacts have been discovered in places like Egypt or the lands that are now where ancient Mesopotamia used to be, or like how workers excavating the site of the current World Trade Centre building complex came across the remains of a wooden ship.

An Old Chinese Alphabet!

Interestingly, the above-mentioned Wikipedia article on Old Mandarin mentions an alphabet:

The phonology of Old Mandarin has been inferred from the ‘Phags-pa script, an alphabet created in 1269 for several languages of the Mongol empire, including Chinese…

The Wikipedia article on the ʼPhags-pa script provides some further summarized information:

The Phagspa script or ʼPhags-pa script[source] is an alphabet designed by the Tibetan monk and State Preceptor (later Imperial Preceptor) Drogön Chögyal Phagpa for Kublai Khan, the founder of the Yuan dynasty, as a unified script for the written languages within the Yuan. The actual use of this script was limited to about a hundred years during the Mongol-led Yuan dynasty, and it fell out of use with the advent of the Ming dynasty.[source][source]

It was used to write and transcribe varieties of Chinese, the Tibetic languages, Mongolian, the Uyghur language, Sanskrit, probably Persian,[source][source][source][source] and other neighboring languages[citation needed] during the Yuan era.

A manuscript copy of an imperial edict of the Yuan dynasty in ʼPhags-pa script
Creative Commons Public Domain logo
A manuscript copy of an imperial edict of the Yuan dynasty in ʼPhags-pa script

An example of the Chinese poem “Hundred Family Surnames” written in Chinese characters and in ʼPhags-pa script
Creative Commons Public Domain logo
An example of the Chinese poem “Hundred Family Surnames” written in Chinese characters and in ʼPhags-pa script

So, despite the claims of some Chinese traditionalists that the Chinese languages can only be written using Chinese characters, Chinese languages, including an old form of Mandarin, have been written with an alphabet before, one that was created for Kublai Khan himself! (Interestingly, Kublai Khan was the ruler of China when Marco Polo visited there. So, this famous Italian may have been there when Chinese languages were written using an alphabet.) Méi ({(there) is not having}) cuò ({being staggered} → [mistake]), there is historical precedent for the idea that a Chinese language like Modern Standard Mandarin can be written with an alphabetical writing system like Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音).


For convenience:

The direct link for the current generation Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus resource for the Enjoy Life Forever! book is:

The short link for Chinese field language-learning links for the Enjoy Life Forever! book is:

More Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) and Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web material based on the Mandarin Enjoy Life Forever! book will be made available in the Pīnyīn (Pīn·yīn {Piecing Together of} · Sounds → [Pinyin] 拼音) Plus web resource as time allows.